Tuesday Tossup - Belated
I got a request to wait a day for the next toss up (and I wanted a nap), so here we are a day late.
Here is the answer to last week’s tossup:
A slightly different approach
This week I’m going to be very straight forward with information about both fighters (still unnamed though) because I’m more interested with the relative perception of the fighters. As you’ll see both fighters appear fairly even from a numerical stand point, but the perception of them is very far apart.
Fighter A
Fighter A was often brought up p4p best discussions. Although not often mentioned in the “top 3″ he was constantly in the top 5 and almost never outside the top 10. Within his own weight class he was almost universally considered #1 or #2 for quite awhile. He won/defended a belt at least a couple times.
Fighter B
Fighter B constantly appears to be largely unknown and unappreciated as a fighter. I’ve seen him crack top 10 lists occasionally, but often with much disdain from a majority of fans. Although they are not currently “top 10″ on this site, their rating is very good and they could easily be right back in the top 10.
Numerical Information
Fighter A and Fighter B have the *SAME* number of wins
Fighter A and Fighter B have the *SAME* number of KOs
Fighter B has *ONE* more *LOSS* than Fighter A
Fighter A’s strength of schedule is *LESS* than 2% higher
Fighter B has *FEWER* submission victories than Fighter A
What I see
As I said, this tossup for me is a bit more about how people perceive fighters. I don’t think anyone would argue that Fighter A is the “better” fighter. It’s almost universally accepted and I take nothing away from them.
Where I become confused is in how Fighter B is often perceived and has been throughout their career. They have the same number of wins, have fought lots of high profile opponents, and their strength of schedule is less than 2% lower than Fighter A. With Fighter A’s recent loss (hint) Fighter B’s current rating is very close. Again, there is no doubt Fighter A has the higher max rating, the higher profile, etc., but I can go months without hearing anyone even mention Fighter B.
Riddle me this
As I said, Fighter A is definitely the more well known, dominate fighter, but is Fighter B really a “can” as some claim? Is it really insane that occasionally their name pops up on a Top 10 list? Please keep in mind I’m not advocating Fighter B as a world-ender, but simply as a solid MMA fighter who has had a career many coming into the sport would kill to have. Why do so few “fans” even know who they are? Even amongst those that do know who they are, why is this fighter often disrespected?
Tags: Tossup
June 24th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
Quick question: as before, are we only considering fighters currently (or previously) weight class?
Aside from that, I think your hints are fine, so I’m not asking for further elaboration.
Not sure how I missed Pyle…
June 24th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
… previously) in the same weight class
*sigh*
June 25th, 2009 at 4:36 am
http://www.mma-elo.com/fighter_compare/4000/107/
June 25th, 2009 at 6:00 am
These fighters are *NOT* in the same weight class and never were.
One fighter is basically synonymous with a particular weight class, the other seems to almost never get mentioned.
There’s no doubt a lot of people know Fighter B and some give them credit, but a lot of people have no clue who they are. Even worse, there are some that have gone so far as to call them a “can” and that seems beyond ludicrous to me. I’m not advocating Fighter B as “top 5″ here or anything silly. Just that they appear to have a solid career, beat some solid people, lost to some great people, and maybe just maybe “can” is a bit too harsh a term. *shrugs*
June 25th, 2009 at 8:14 pm
For some reason my last post (link) isn’t showing up.
Fighter A = Urijah Faber
Fighter B = Vladimir Matyushenko
June 26th, 2009 at 5:17 am
Found your last one. 8P
Did you figure out Faber first and then work from there?
June 26th, 2009 at 7:22 am
I started with your info about fighter A being ranked as a top 10 P4P best but not top 3. And defending his belt a few times.
That eliminated Fedor, GSP and Silva since they are usually considered the top 3, and eliminated Penn, Rashad, Machida for no belt defenses, and left possibly Brown, Torres, and Faber.
I could eliminate Torres because I know no one with a 37-2 record.
I could eliminate Brown for not having a recent loss.
Then I just had to use the List Builder to find someone within a 2% strength of schedule of Faber who has a 22-4 record, the same KOs and less Subs.
June 26th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
Well played. I thought I was pretty generous with the information this time. 8P
What gets me about Vladimir is that his only losses are to: AA, Tito, Nog (whom he’d previously beaten) and Vernon (whom he’d previously beaten).
I just feel that if I were a new fighter starting out in MMA and someone told me I’d go 22-4 against *SOLID* competition overall I’d be pretty happy with that. Yet somehow Vladimir seems to remain mostly unnoticed.
Faber obviously has the title defenses and is a bit higher profile from being at the top of a division, but looking at the overall numbers both of their careers are pretty impressive in my opinion.
Vladimir has been around for awhile (97), but the only year he didn’t have a fight was 04. He was 5-0 in 07 with a couple decent wins (gave Boetsch his first loss).
He’s just one of those fighters that makes me wonder how some can look at “Top 10″ and act like no one else exists. What is it about him that makes him a “can” to some?
June 26th, 2009 at 5:30 pm
I think it is hard to compare fighters from a weightclass like FW, which doesn’t have much of a history, to one like LHW which has been very deep and competative for 10+ years.
I don’t remember ever seeing 145lb fights until a few years ago. There were no names fighting each other consistantly. They wern’t getting featured like the heavier weightclasses. I think that made it harder for the light weight classes to consistantly have the level of opponents that the LHWs were able to achieve and that is why they in general have a much lower career strength of schedule.
Some things that work against Matyushenko
-His age
-Slightly one dimentional
-He isn’t in the UFC - It is amazing how strong this plays into peoples minds. If Matyushenko had recently fought the exact same people in the UFC people might have had a much better opinion of his abilities when he was on his 8 fight win streak.
I don’t think most people consider him a “can”. More like just a solid fighter, who can beat other good fighters but probably not great ones.
June 26th, 2009 at 6:49 pm
The weight class is definitely an issue. The rant I had setup for Thursday actually addressed that some, but I was never happy with the final draft. I’ll release it sometime this weekend most likely.
His age is an issue, but again, that’s not a universal thing. When people want Nog and Wand retired in their early 30’s, but say Couture is at his best at 40+ it’s obvious that “age” isn’t a guaranteed deterministic factor. Age is just one of those red herrings at this point and I kinda figured some people would realize it’s more about the fight and the results.
He isn’t in the UFC now, but he was, and that’s part of what I find so interesting. When we look at not just him, but also his opponents we see a lot of people that are “UFC” kind of guys. Boetsch was big for his win over Heath, and although he’s lost a couple more Vlad gave him his first loss.
We see wins against Pedro (Bigger deal back then), and even Lambert (Win over Sobral), etc.
It’s not just who Vlad beat, but who those people beat. He really has had just a solid career against solid people. Do you really think the fact that those wins didn’t all take place in the “UFC” makes that big a difference? Even when he’s beating still beating “UFC” fighters?
Sadly, I have seen him called a can, and I have had people claim he’s not even “top 20″. That is always amusing because most can’t name me 20 other light heavies to put ahead of him, but oh well.